Nov 7, 2017 Welcome - Please Read! Welcome to the Classic Discussion forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft: Classic with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct and guidelines before posting. Code of Conduct: http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct Getting the Most Out of the Forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2016792409 Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community.Ornyx1 Nov 7, 2017
Nov 15 The most hardcore thing you can do. In vanilla? I have a few things that could be it. Playing on a perma death PvP server and kill kel'thuzad. Without dying even once. Being able to kill a mage/rogue/warlock/pally in all BiS gear Soloing a high end dungeon boss like rivendare or dark master gandling. Leveling to 60 with no gear or weapons or pet of any kind. That is by far the most hardcore, life threatening thing you can do in vanilla wowHavell7 Nov 15
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
Nov 15 Loot sharing. Fools How stupid is the community about loot sharing? You know there is master loot right? Stop being dumb guys like holy crap. You also know that if you're the guy setting up a group or joining a group you have a option not to run or you can pick player's of different armor types... If you're a cloth wearer you just don't run or set up a group with other cloth wearers. Like this is something so simple and the community can't graps anything. I feel bad for blizzard sometimes with having to deal with brain power of this community. The community: "Oh, I didn't think about that. Derp, I'm an idiot."Plewtoe23 Nov 15
After choosing a race, class and customizing the look of your character, you will spawn in your race's starting zone, usually within a small settlement. Typically, these beginning areas are designed to get you to around level 10 before you leave and move on to the next zone. Right away, you will notice that some NPCs have a yellow exclamation mark () over their head. These symbols will also display on the mini map in the top-right corner of the screen if you are close to them. Talking with these NPCs will allow you to read and accept a quest they have for you. The objectives and status of this quest can be checked at any time by opening the quest log (L). Once you have completed the objectives for said quest, you can return to the NPC (or possibly a different one) to turn in the quest. The NPC whom you need to turn a quest into will have a yellow question mark () over their head. As you complete quests and your character gains levels, always be on the lookout for new quests being offered by NPCs.
In order to save up gold quickly, you must be mindful of your character’s professions. According to various sources, the most profitable profession back in the day used to be herbalism. Mining and skinning are right up there as well. Gathering-oriented professions have an advantage compared to the crafting ones in the early levels because gathering doesn’t require you to spend gold in order to make some coins. You can find plenty of herbs to collect, ores to mine and beasts to skin, all while you’re levelling. Everything you manage to gather can then be sold in the auction house fairly quickly.
This was a good start, but there were issues with how the developers used to handle updates to the database data. Unlike the source code, for which Blizzard had archives for multiple branches of the game that could be worked on and developed as separate pieces, early database data was overwritten with each commensurate update. Thankfully, that problem was fixed very quickly after launch, and when we looked, we found data going back to version 1.12—and even earlier.
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
Expected More That WoW Classic Will Resurrect That Hardcore Breed Of MMO That So Many Players Originally Fell In Love With. In World Of Warcraft Classic, It's Built Using Patch 1.12, Titled Drums Of War, Released On August 22, 2006, Equipment And Abilities Will Remain Stable In Order To Reflect The Minor Adjustment That Blizzard Made With Each Path While Dungeons, Raids, And PVP Features Will Constantly Change.
Nov 15 Classic hit me like a truck I had no interest in it what so ever. After watching the blizzcon demo - I can’t stop thinking about it. The combat it’s so visceral. The world is so much bigger and so much more dangerous. Each fight reminded me of dark souls. I’ve been watching only classic and vanilla vids since blizzcon, it’s actually ruined retail for me. I was actually enjoying raiding in BFA but now I don’t want anything but to play classic and immerse myself in it. What is this sorcery? I heard vanilla wow was addictive, but really? I feel like I’m in withdrawal and I haven’t even played it yet. I think I’m in trouble once it releases. I don’t want to log into retail anymore :(Gripp204 Nov 15
Nov 15 [OCE] Alliance Late night PvE will be a hard core focused PvE raiding guild. GOALS To clear all content efficiently and quickly To have fun To be the best we can be To clear MC during week 2- RAID TIMES raid times will be held in GMT+9, this is Japan's time zone for reference, this does NOT follow day light savings. for reference, at this moment these times would be 11:30 in Sydney, and 7:30AM EST USA. MON 9:30PM-12:30AM WED 9:30PM-12:30AM THUR 9:30PM-12:30AM-may schedule a 4th day during progression if needed- 20 man raids will be help on off days, or raid days if all content has been cleared. again to be clear, this schedule will not follow DSL, so your start time may move 1 hour forward or backwards during the year. EXPECTATIONS I want my raiders to be willing. You do not have to be a former pro raider, you do not have to have vanilla experience. While these things are welcomed and I do share these qualities. All i need from you is the willingness to learn and become better. Give me your best and I'll give you quality leadership that has proven time and time again to down bosses and push through content. Effort will always be rewarded. LOOT RULES I will be using my own system style of loot council. It has worked well for me in the past and I will continue to use it. I can explain parts of it in detail on discord if you wish. ROSTER This is a brand new endeavor, I will be main tanking and I am looking for others to help me push this to a competent raid team. I look forward to making fresh connections and creating great bonds with all of you. ABOUT ME I have been playing warcraft since vanilla. I climbed higher and higher into better and better guilds until I eventually landed in a top 10 US guild during MoP. before WOD released I essentially stopped hardcore raiding and went more casual. I am now looking to get back into a more hardcore scene with like minded individuals who enjoy the prestige of completing content quickly. CONTACT BATTLENET Firefly#1855 DISCORD Hatchmark#2695 the discord has lots of links to video guides and other sources to help get you ready for classicHatchmark8 Nov 15
This was a good start, but there were issues with how the developers used to handle updates to the database data. Unlike the source code, for which Blizzard had archives for multiple branches of the game that could be worked on and developed as separate pieces, early database data was overwritten with each commensurate update. Thankfully, that problem was fixed very quickly after launch, and when we looked, we found data going back to version 1.12—and even earlier.
Nov 15 Dual Boxing in Classic I was seriously thinking about being a masochist and playing a paladin in classic but then I wondered if dual boxing will still be possible in classic with the change in engines running the game. I've never dual boxed so will have to research how it works. However, it hit me that I can dual box a warrior and a priest then transfer the priest to my main account at 60 so I will have the best tank and best healer in the game to play around with. Anyone else planning on doing this and have any good resources to start learning about it?Twiinkedd6 Nov 15
Use (“V”) to show all the patients status on screen. You will have special triage bandages (add them to your action bar/hot key) which should be applied to Critically injured, then Badly injured, and then injured. Once you started treating a patient do not interupt, just finish treating that patient before moving on to another patient. You should select your next patient before your are finished with the first one, then all you have to do is hit you hot key to start the next one.

- We do have a single money back guarantee (refund policy) in existence for every server we operate on. We do strive to deliver your purchased goods as soon as possible, but it may happen that we are AFK due to offline activities. You should not worry though - if the gold is not delivered to you within 24 hours, a 100% refund can be provided to you simply by sending an e-mail to shop@v7gaming.com - we won't ask any questions to you.
If you’re into MMORPG games, you’ve probably heard that World of Warcraft is preparing to release a classic version of the game this summer. However, not many people have played in the real Classic and current in-game classes might seem completely unrecognizable to some. In the early days of World of Warcraft, the class choice was very important – leveling was super slow, which meant that you could get stuck with your character for months.
Nov 15 Why was it "easy" for Nost, but hard for Bliz During Blizzcon we were told how challenging (at least that's how it came off) it was for Blizzard to create a working version of Classic... but Nostalrius, with no ties to Blizzard, was able to make a relatively bug free version of Vanilla? When I say "bug free" I know there was "a lot" of issues, but nothing an entire team at Blizzard couldn't fix. Wouldn't it be less work?Goró64 Nov 15
Nov 15 Little Test on Class Quest Rewards Hey guys, I did a little test on certain class rewards to check whether they are adequate or not for the level they are obtainable. Paladin - Verigan's Fist is a famous weapon, added probably during the Naxx patch and lot of paladins remember lasting it for long time. Obtainable level is like 22, with party of same level players. And the Mace is equivalent to a level 26 Blue Mace. This means it's not bad! Warrior - Brutal Hauberk is infamous warrior chest. It is obtainable at level 20(as I remember), but it requires running a level 28+ dungeon. And it's mediocre - it compares to a level 24 blue, which is stupid. Whirlwind Axe is a famous warrior weapon which requires a nanny. :D You get level 30 and then pay people money or beg them to help you. This is not even doable with normal party until 35ish. Whirlwind Axe is equivalent to a 35 level Blue Axe, which is decent but still seems to be forcing it. Unless you hire a nanny, being social will probably help you get it at around 35-36 with similar level players. Warlock - Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe is pretty famous. I am not sure when it is exactly doable but is comparable to a level 35ish Robe. I think the verdict is that Paladin's Hammer is by far the best and the reason for it is that it was added later, at the end of vanilla, when Blizzard had more brains. :DHolylr1 Nov 15
In this form, there is much less wasted space and spells are no longer limited to three effects. But before we can load any database data, we need to transform the old data layout into the new one. This is not limited to spells, as almost every game system (including items, creatures, player characters, spawning, AI, and more) has had its database layout altered over the years.
I hate to be the one to say this, but let’s face it: we’re not little kids any more. Even for those of us who played Vanilla when they were well into their adult years will have gotten 14 years older, 14 years wiser, and up to 14 years more experienced with video games. What does that mean for Classic WoW? Well for starters, the grand majority of people who are interested in Classic will now have full time jobs. Some might have families and kids they didn’t have before. Basically, WoW Classic won’t be a big of a chunk in people’s lives as it was back then. Considering how much time you will really need to put into Classic WoW to enjoy everything it has to offer, that might be an issue. Stringing together 40-odd people to storm Blackwing Lair might be significantly more difficult now than it was back then. However, due to the issues I talked about in the paragraph above, it might not need to be the long, arduous hours that many people put into Vanilla raiding. With the right preparation and knowledge, raids in Classic will most likely take considerably less time to complete than they did in Vanilla, which will hopefully counteract the fact that the majority of players will have less overall time and fewer long chunks of time to play. 6. Conclusion In essence, the game itself might not be changing from Vanilla to Classic WoW, but the knowledge and mindset of the players of the game will considerably change the way the game feels. Everyone probably figures that there won’t be that same sense of wonder that Vanilla WoW brought so long ago, and that’s true. Nostalgia can only carry Classic WoW so far. Thankfully, I believe that there is some truly solid game design inVanilla WoW, and the fact that Blizzard have doubled down on creating a verbatim experience for Classic WoW is something that people have been adamant about since the day they announced its release. Only time will tell if ClassicWoW truly is the thing people have been wanting, or whether the new CEO ofBlizzard Jay Allen Brack was right – we thought we wanted it, but we didn’t.
Nov 15 5 reasons I'm doubtful of WoW Classic I played WoW from patch 1.4 until Sunwell. And I'm not convinced on Classic. 1. I understand nostalgia for the gameplay, and it was a great game, by I don't get why people would want the old graphics when it looked outdated back then. Someone will level a warrior or rogue at snail pace and those 2004 boring graphics will reinforce his perception that the game is bad because it looks bad. 2. The lack of a second talent tree. This was the most demanded feature and I don't see people sticking with the game without it. 3. This has always been in the game, but weekly resets, I never got it, let people able to reset raids. Maybe have a 2 hours cooldown, but if a guild wants to farm a raid every night, or twice on a sunday, or farm the first 3 bosses of MC, let them. Gearing 40-60 people with weekly resets, in this day and age, good luck. 4. Dungeon finder, not sure people will like that, again bad decision. 5. The graphics, no seriously, this is bad on every level of game design, it just make the game look worse, a straight negative with no benefit.Pekuakami24 Nov 15
An advice for those who are trying to compete monopolizers: you cannot beat them by selling for less if they follow right steps. You should do opposite: sell for more. Because market will come down if the price goes unreasonably high. You can set a bid on item for the price it should cost and buy out price for higher than a monopolizer is selling. So, common buyer may get an item for the right price or monopolizer has to buy the item at his loss.
Some players choose to take a slightly alternative approach to their gold farming. This approach can take an extensive amount of time and dedication. Many people choose to train a ton of alts, solely for the purpose of making money and multi-tasking. In World of Warcraft Classic, professions are usually paired together. For example, if you’re training alchemy, you will need herbs to create consumables (e.g. flasks) that are used for raiding. An intelligent and observant player could seize this knowledge by creating one alchemy alt and one herbalism alt, swapping items as needed between each other. This fully mitigates the fees by the Auction House, which means your profit is maximised. Another complimentary combination you can use is skinning and tailoring, or cooking and fishing.

Note: My goal here was to create a comprehensive list of everything you'd need in order to learn to play any class (from Level 1 to Naxxramas)—meaning I am only including class-specific resources here (so no profession guides, general leveling guides, etc). Teeb's Resource list is much broader in scope, and I highly recommend you take advantage of it (as it contains a plethora of non-class specific resources as well). If you're not aware, Teeb is also responsible for the Race & Class Comparison Tool, Dungeon Tier Sets Gallery, and a huge variety of other insanely useful resources.

I now have a Patreon Page where you guys can support me while I work on Vanilla WoW leveling guides every day.  I appreciate all of you who support me on there, it means a lot to me right now.  Doing this full time is taxing on my financial situation.  My goal is to make the best Vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web and the donations keep me going at it healthfully.  There is also cool rewards you get in return for donating.  Thanks!
You will have to talk with flight masters in most towns or cities you visit in order to gain access to that settlement's flight path. Flight masters who have a stop you have not yet unlocked will have a green displayed above their head (and on the mini map), much like a NPC with a quest. Unlocking flight paths as you progress through various zones will allow you to pay for a quick ride to a destination you have previously visited. This method of travel is significantly faster than walking or riding a mount.

This is for those who want to own a piece of Vanilla WoW history!  This tier requires your physical mailing address so I can mail you the printed paperback binded mini leveling guide/book.  By default I will sign "Joana" on each book!  If you wish for me to write something else out (such as my real name) you can request that as well.  And finally, thank you for the support and I will continue to make the best leveling guides for WoW! 

Why Skinning? Skinning is incredibly easy to level up while you are leveling your character. The leather that you skin will almost always sell on the Auction House (albeit not for much, but hey– it’s free gold!). Even if you don’t want to take the effort to sell the skins on the Auction House, you can simply vendor them for a significant amount of extra gold.
This did not just simply come randomly, however. Players have been demanding and asking for World of Warcraft Classic for many years now. And Blizzard has likely learned from companies like Jagex that regained a huge portion of their player-base with the launch of Old School RuneScape, which prior to it had a 2006Scape private server. Similarly, World of Warcraft Classic/Vanilla has been around in the form of private servers for many years now and has been very popular. Even top players and streamers have been known to play on these private servers. The only issue is Blizzard were not the ones profiting from these ventures.
In this form, there is much less wasted space and spells are no longer limited to three effects. But before we can load any database data, we need to transform the old data layout into the new one. This is not limited to spells, as almost every game system (including items, creatures, player characters, spawning, AI, and more) has had its database layout altered over the years.

A lot has happened in World of Warcraft in the fifteen years since it originally launched, and over that time we’ve come to expect certain things, not just in WoW, but in games in general. As players explore Azeroth as it existed back in 2006 during the WoW Classic beta, they’re reporting bugs – but in many cases, these ‘bugs’ are really just features that are working as intended.


Fortunately, WoW’s modern editor is able to perform some of these data conversions, and for the terrain data we could convert it with the same editor we used on Battle for Azeroth. The modern editor “knows” how to load the old terrain format and how to transform it into the new terrain format and export it to the modern engine. This corrected the issues of campfire placements and the appearance of trees, among other things.
Now that you know to loot everything (see tip #1), you’ll have a lot of items in your bags. Any item that is white quality or greater may sell on the Auction House. How do you know what will sell well on the auction house? Trade goods and green quality (or better) items will almost always sell on the Auction House. See our Auction House guide (coming soon!) for more information.
Why Skinning? Skinning is incredibly easy to level up while you are leveling your character. The leather that you skin will almost always sell on the Auction House (albeit not for much, but hey– it’s free gold!). Even if you don’t want to take the effort to sell the skins on the Auction House, you can simply vendor them for a significant amount of extra gold.
Nov 13 WoW Classic BlizzCon Demo Pre-Download Hi everyone! We’re incredibly excited for you all to get your hands on the WoW Classic BlizzCon demo next week, and to help make things as smooth as possible, we’re making the client available to download for Virtual Ticket holders starting today. Over the next 24 hours, we’ll be enabling the ability to download the WoW Classic demo through the Battle.net app for players who have purchased the BlizzCon Virtual Ticket, as well as standard BlizzCon ticket holders who have added their Virtual Goodies code to their Battle.net account. If you don’t see the option to install the demo right away, don’t worry – you’ll still have plenty of time to download the client before the demo goes live during BlizzCon next week. We can’t wait for you to get a peek at what we’ve been working on, and hope you enjoy this preview of what’s to come!Ythisens156 Nov 13

To get Blacksmithing to level 300 is much effort. It is not that thing to make fast gold. There is always a lack of Blacksmiths though. Enchanters need rods of all kinds, melee classes look for Sharpening Stones and Weightstones with Counterweights, others buy Iron Spurs. Once you have learnt rare and epic recipes, people will always use your service to craft items. 

This was a good start, but there were issues with how the developers used to handle updates to the database data. Unlike the source code, for which Blizzard had archives for multiple branches of the game that could be worked on and developed as separate pieces, early database data was overwritten with each commensurate update. Thankfully, that problem was fixed very quickly after launch, and when we looked, we found data going back to version 1.12—and even earlier.
To get Blacksmithing to level 300 is much effort. It is not that thing to make fast gold. There is always a lack of Blacksmiths though. Enchanters need rods of all kinds, melee classes look for Sharpening Stones and Weightstones with Counterweights, others buy Iron Spurs. Once you have learnt rare and epic recipes, people will always use your service to craft items.
Nov 15 Dual Boxing in Classic I was seriously thinking about being a masochist and playing a paladin in classic but then I wondered if dual boxing will still be possible in classic with the change in engines running the game. I've never dual boxed so will have to research how it works. However, it hit me that I can dual box a warrior and a priest then transfer the priest to my main account at 60 so I will have the best tank and best healer in the game to play around with. Anyone else planning on doing this and have any good resources to start learning about it?Twiinkedd6 Nov 15

In terms of what the World of Warcraft Classic Best Classes are, Warrior and Priest stand out almost instantly. This is partly due to the fact that Protection Warrior is the only viable Tank Class in WoW Vanilla Patch 1.12. Both the Proc Warrior and Priest are required for Raids and when combined in a PVP setting can be a fierce combo on the battlegrounds.
Rogue combo points posed another challenge, because the game’s modern resource system knows how to gain and spend combo points, but not how to lose them when changing targets. There are also the older combat formulas to consider, so we had to bring back the code for the prior combat formulas including critical hits and crushing blows. Their chance to occur is also modified by the difference between the defender’s defense and the attacker’s weapon skill. Yes—weapon skill is back. We had the data for this aspect of the classic game, but we also needed to restore the code that increased your skills when you used them and made your skill level affect your chance to hit or get a glancing blow.
Gold in World of Warcraft Classic is an integral part of the game. In this article, we will discuss the importance/role of gold in vanilla WOW and how you can obtain it easily. Gold was vastly more important in classic; it gradually became less relevant/powerful as time went on in the current version of the game. It is very tedious (but not difficult) to gain gold in vanilla, which is why many people choose to purchase gold.
Nov 15 Can both versions be played at the same time? I would play a lot of classic wow in between the queue times in modern wow. I have to wait for queues for raids, wait for M+, wait for pvp queues, wait for mount respawns. During the demo, I had to decide if I wanted to test out the classic demo, or obtain new items on my modern characters. I would have played a lot more classic wow during my downtime in modern wow, but there was an issue where my modern wow account would be logged out of the game, if my classic wow account demo logged in. Pretty please, I would really like if the classic account did not log out the modern wow account and both could be logged in at the same time.Hunterhir8 Nov 15
Nov 15 Classic was great, BC was better. IMO, BC hit the sweet spot in terms of content and gaming for WoW. It basically kept the core gameplay of Classic, but streamlined it for a better experience. Questing wasn't much different (still needed groups for hard quests), dungeons were still challenging (no LFD, heroics could be very difficult), and the raids were plentiful and required less people (25 and 10) Classes were much more balanced, specs were vastly improved (druids and paladins could finally tank and DPS as good as they could heal) In PVP, arenas are one thing I don't know if they should have ever added TBH. Some people might complain about the introduction of flying mounts, but I think it fit the expansion well. Also, Shattrath City was a great city hub! I enjoyed spending time there. Overall, I think it was the best WoW has ever been.Rhamus13 Nov 15
Another way to make gold. This option works well at level 60 when you have some good gear already. Obviously, you should have some gold ready to buy reagents. Be ready for expenses up to 225 skill points in any profession: items below that are not worth much. You will get first income after 225 skill points in Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, Alchemy or Tailoring. Unfortunately, Engineering and Enchanting will still require some investments.  The only way to make gold with enchanting is disenchanting skill (we talked about it).
I hate to be the one to say this, but let’s face it: we’re not little kids any more. Even for those of us who played Vanilla when they were well into their adult years will have gotten 14 years older, 14 years wiser, and up to 14 years more experienced with video games. What does that mean for Classic WoW? Well for starters, the grand majority of people who are interested in Classic will now have full time jobs. Some might have families and kids they didn’t have before. Basically, WoW Classic won’t be a big of a chunk in people’s lives as it was back then. Considering how much time you will really need to put into Classic WoW to enjoy everything it has to offer, that might be an issue. Stringing together 40-odd people to storm Blackwing Lair might be significantly more difficult now than it was back then. However, due to the issues I talked about in the paragraph above, it might not need to be the long, arduous hours that many people put into Vanilla raiding. With the right preparation and knowledge, raids in Classic will most likely take considerably less time to complete than they did in Vanilla, which will hopefully counteract the fact that the majority of players will have less overall time and fewer long chunks of time to play. 6. Conclusion In essence, the game itself might not be changing from Vanilla to Classic WoW, but the knowledge and mindset of the players of the game will considerably change the way the game feels. Everyone probably figures that there won’t be that same sense of wonder that Vanilla WoW brought so long ago, and that’s true. Nostalgia can only carry Classic WoW so far. Thankfully, I believe that there is some truly solid game design inVanilla WoW, and the fact that Blizzard have doubled down on creating a verbatim experience for Classic WoW is something that people have been adamant about since the day they announced its release. Only time will tell if ClassicWoW truly is the thing people have been wanting, or whether the new CEO ofBlizzard Jay Allen Brack was right – we thought we wanted it, but we didn’t.

Nov 15 My only complain about Classic... ...Horde doesn't have any nice looking races. In my mind each class has best RPG based race for it. So, I like Gnomes because I feel them Mages. Night Elves - Hunters. Humans - Paladins. On Horde side: Undead - ugly. Trolls - ugly. Orcs... uhh fine as Warriors, but I don't play warriors. Tauren - Warriors or Shaman, again don't play those. Blood Elves! Give me Blood Elves!Vlasta36 Nov 15

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