Nov 15 I Don't Have Time To Reach Rank 11-14 I Don't Have Time To Reach Rank 11-14 and this is perfectly ACCEPTABLE! I actually like the fact that rank 11-14 is extremely hard to get and time consuming. I don't care if it's not about skill, it is very RPG feeling in the fact that, the people who put in the most time and effort spilling the most enemy blood are the ones who get the best rewards. as somebody who will NEVER have a chance of getting those ranks and items because; 1. I do not have time to do it 2. even if I did have time I still wouldn't do it because I mentally could not farm BG's that many hours for 3 months I support the PvP system and think it is great, and acquiring the hugely powerful items is a big reward and a status symbol. in Classic WoW the game is less about YOU and more about your guild. even if you are not the person to get rank 14, or a Legendary item it still feels awesome when your guild mates get them because it will make your guild stronger. LOVE IT!Agonyy107 Nov 15
Nov 15 C2C interview with Theloras aka ME Hey everyone, Earlier today I spent some time with the Man, the Myth, the Legend who is Countdown to Classic and we spent some time discussing what I and many other Paladins are most looking forward to in the upcoming WoW Classic demo that will be available during Blizzcon: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/325334774 Since it looks like just Elwynn Forest for the Alliance and Durotar for the Horde will be available to play/test during the upcoming demo/beta, only early level gameplay will be possible to test at any length. But even with that limitation, a major core mechanic for Paladins will be able to be tested and theory crafted. I am of course referring to JUDGEMENT STACKING which I outlined in the thread below along with several other mechanics/talents/items that are still lingering and unanswered questions: Proc Items + Spell Dmg + JotC stacking? https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760205815#post-1 TLDR - I found actual Vanilla era evidence (posted in the thread above) which stated that all ranks of each individual Judgement stacked with one another - Judgement of Light (JoL), Judgement of Wisdom (JoW) and most critically in this case, Judgement of the Crusader (JotC): With pvp gloves, libram and 3/3 imp JotC = +829 holy damage JotC R1 +79 Holy Damage JotC R2 +90 Holy Damage JotC R3 +113 Holy Damage JotC R4 +148 Holy Damage JotC R5 +182 Holy Damage JotC R6 +217 Holy Damage Since rank 1 Seal/Judgement of the Crusader is learned at level 6 and rank 2 is learned at level 12, if Elwynn Forest ends up being the only zone open for testing, then reaching level 12 is definitely doable from quest turnins and XP from mob kills. Which will allow 2 Paladins to join as a group and coordinate each of them putting up rank 1 and rank 2 of Judgement of the Crusader accordingly. If this proves to be correct, then it would forever change the LOLRET Meta with the simple fact that the more Retribution Paladins you have in a group/raid, the more powerful each of them then become and would also allow other class/specs come to the forefront as well namely Discipline Priests spamming Smite. At any rate, the twitch interview link is above - we had some audio technical issues at the start so if you fast forward to the 5:00 mark - you can hear the full interview. PS as a bonus, later on in the interview the Crazy OOMkin named Keftenk makes a special guest appearance :) https://twitter.com/count2classicTheloras111 Nov 15
First thing you should do is to learn the market for the specific item you would like to monopolize. Let’s say it is Kingsblood. We can see a stack of Kingsblood is selling for 1 gold. There are 10 stacks on Auction House. To control the market, you have to buy out all the lots of Kingsblood, even single ones. Next move is to make auctions of Kingsblood you have bought for the price you want. Be reasonable and make it 2 gold. But all people are still being used to the old price of 1 gold and will not buy your Kingsblood at first. You have to maintain your auctions for 2 gold all the time, no need to put all Kingsblood you have at once, 3-5 lots are enough at the beginning. You can see, other sellers may start create auctions for 2 gold as well. That’s what we need.  But if someone is selling for cheaper price, buy out their Kingsblood immediately. Soon people will start to accept your price of 2 gold as a regular price and will buy your stuff. Now you just to have to sell all Kingsblood you got. Control several markets. It can be anything, even twink blue items or items level 20-30 or 30-40. Same strategy works everywhere. It requires lots of time to track the markets and check auction house. It is not that easy as it may seem, you should spend at least a week of monitoring to be sure about prices, you will fail if you buy out everything at once without research. Soon or later, too many people will decide to sell your item as well. As they could see price change and think it had happened naturally. Market becomes overflooded. It is important to quit before the collapse. This always happens.

The closed beta for Blizzard’s upcoming World of Warcraft vanilla server option launched on May 15th, and Blizzard has now listed some of the apparent issues that the development team is aware of, including class and combat related issues alongside missing textures and more. Blizzard mentions that this list is not a complete depiction of what they’re aware of, but a sampling of issues they believe players may encounter on regular basis.
Nov 15 NO CHANGES. Change it, we won't play. NO server cap above 2500 NO further restrictions towards addon APIs NO sharding NO increased/decreased XP rate NO loot trading NO CRZ NO phasing NO connected realms NO dynamic respawn NO LFD/LFR NO new models NO dual talents NO wow token NO character boost NO shop NO transmog NO achievement NO heirlooms NO arena NO bfa character customization NO esports NO rated BG NO raid re-tuning NO class re-balancing NO personal loot NO flying NO mythic keystone dungeon NO multiple difficulties NO aoe-looting NO Death Knight NO Monk NO Demon Hunter NO blood elf NO draenei NO playable worgen/goblin NO allied races NO pandas No anti-cheat that blocks wall climbing (I want to see mount hyjal) YES to CRBG in the final patch. NO to any other cross realm technology These changes are unacceptable. Sorry I am speaking the truth. BTW. NO "NO CHANGES, BUT ..."Castradys254 Nov 15
Nov 15 Thank you for the demo I just want to say thank you to Blizzard for the demo. I seriously had so much fun - so much more fun than I've had trying to play wow in YEARS. I know not everything was 100% accurate to classic, but it was just a demo so that doesn't worry me too much. I still had a million times more fun playing that demo than retail in any case. THE THINGS I LOVED: (1) I died so much. Like... SO MUCH, and that's alright! Once I finally finished whatever it was I was doing, it felt really rewarding! My group and I were actually laughing when we party wiped. No one insulted anyone or pointed blame, we just had fun. (2) Things took time. The journey mattered, it wasn't just about hitting end game asap. I felt accomplished at the end of all those time consuming things I did. (3) I had fun exploring! I spent so much time just running around, not knowing what the heck to do, but that was FUN. I had FUN getting lost and finding treasure chests. (4) Seeing the classic models again! Tbh, the races all look rubbery and stupid now... I honestly think the old racial looks are nicer. (5) Reading quests was necessary again, so the story mattered to me. No one booted me from the party for "taking too long" because I wanted to read. (6) The community! There were actually people doing RP stuff and talking in character. Everyone in the chat was just having fun. (7) All of the inconveniences - running out of mana, no mounts, running slowly on foot, little or no flightpaths... These things are fun because they're not just handed to me. I had to work hard and play the game to get things. (8) People constantly buffed other players, because that small boost could be the reason you didn't die when a roaming centaur attacked you from behind. THE THINGS I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT: (1) I've heard rumors about possible sharding... PLEASE DO NOT SHARD. PLEASE. I can understand if it's temporary just for the initial launch, and only for starting zones. I think that is a decent enough compromise for the inevitable problem of overpopulation for the first few weeks. But if we're talking about full scale realm sharding, PLEASE DO NOT! Cross-realm features and sharding are what ruined communities in wow, same with dungeon finder and other such things, and these features are very unwanted for a classic player like me. (2) The elite raptor I tamed as a hunter was not stronger than the non-elite raptor I tamed at the same level. In classic, elite animals had better stats as hunter pets once tamed, compared to the same non-elite version of that animal at the same level. (3) I think the mana and health regen rates were a bit too high? I'm not certain, but if they were I honestly want them to be genuine. It's okay if it's hard - challenges make games fun! Anyway, thank you again! I had a ton of fun, and as long as classic is true to classic with all of its pros AND cons, I feel certain that it will be a success.Sarai10 Nov 15
Nov 15 Thank you for the demo I just want to say thank you to Blizzard for the demo. I seriously had so much fun - so much more fun than I've had trying to play wow in YEARS. I know not everything was 100% accurate to classic, but it was just a demo so that doesn't worry me too much. I still had a million times more fun playing that demo than retail in any case. THE THINGS I LOVED: (1) I died so much. Like... SO MUCH, and that's alright! Once I finally finished whatever it was I was doing, it felt really rewarding! My group and I were actually laughing when we party wiped. No one insulted anyone or pointed blame, we just had fun. (2) Things took time. The journey mattered, it wasn't just about hitting end game asap. I felt accomplished at the end of all those time consuming things I did. (3) I had fun exploring! I spent so much time just running around, not knowing what the heck to do, but that was FUN. I had FUN getting lost and finding treasure chests. (4) Seeing the classic models again! Tbh, the races all look rubbery and stupid now... I honestly think the old racial looks are nicer. (5) Reading quests was necessary again, so the story mattered to me. No one booted me from the party for "taking too long" because I wanted to read. (6) The community! There were actually people doing RP stuff and talking in character. Everyone in the chat was just having fun. (7) All of the inconveniences - running out of mana, no mounts, running slowly on foot, little or no flightpaths... These things are fun because they're not just handed to me. I had to work hard and play the game to get things. (8) People constantly buffed other players, because that small boost could be the reason you didn't die when a roaming centaur attacked you from behind. THE THINGS I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT: (1) I've heard rumors about possible sharding... PLEASE DO NOT SHARD. PLEASE. I can understand if it's temporary just for the initial launch, and only for starting zones. I think that is a decent enough compromise for the inevitable problem of overpopulation for the first few weeks. But if we're talking about full scale realm sharding, PLEASE DO NOT! Cross-realm features and sharding are what ruined communities in wow, same with dungeon finder and other such things, and these features are very unwanted for a classic player like me. (2) The elite raptor I tamed as a hunter was not stronger than the non-elite raptor I tamed at the same level. In classic, elite animals had better stats as hunter pets once tamed, compared to the same non-elite version of that animal at the same level. (3) I think the mana and health regen rates were a bit too high? I'm not certain, but if they were I honestly want them to be genuine. It's okay if it's hard - challenges make games fun! Anyway, thank you again! I had a ton of fun, and as long as classic is true to classic with all of its pros AND cons, I feel certain that it will be a success.Sarai10 Nov 15
Nov 15 Loot trading is perfect for vanilla Loot trading is a good thing. It promotes forming close bonds and guilds. For example, lets say you are in a 5 man pug party, and 3 of those party members are in a guild, or are friends. Those 3 can roll for each other and pass the loot to the friend who wants it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Since in vanilla, all casters and healers want the same loot, and all melee and ranged dps want the same loot, you can always justify rolling to increase your friends odds. Now, if there was no loot trading, then pugs get the same chance as you to win loot, and that isn't right. Vanilla is supposed to be about community and friendship, not giving everyone an equal chance at loot. Sure, some people will be inconvenienced by it, but vanilla IS inconvenient, and slow at times, but we sacrifice convenience for more social interaction, and loot sharing will bring friends and guilds together like never before. Blizzard understands what we want, so that's why i'll be playing classic, and you should too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: The loners who try to get through the game with none having their back will have a harder time, and that's how it's SUPPOSED to be in an mmo. cant you see? This is nothing if not an improvement.Windsheared159 Nov 15
Gold in World of Warcraft Classic is an integral part of the game. In this article, we will discuss the importance/role of gold in vanilla WOW and how you can obtain it easily. Gold was vastly more important in classic; it gradually became less relevant/powerful as time went on in the current version of the game. It is very tedious (but not difficult) to gain gold in vanilla, which is why many people choose to purchase gold.
In restoring World of Warcraft Classic, our guiding principle has been to provide an authentic experience. Things might run a bit smoother and the hardware is better, but the game should still look and feel like you’re playing World of Warcraft from 2006. Things like combat equations, original models, and hunter skills are certainly part of that—but things like social dynamics are a part of that too. The reliance on others, the effort it took to assemble a group, and how that impacted your journey into a dungeon—these were all part of the classic experience that we wanted to preserve.
Nov 13 WoW Classic BlizzCon Demo Pre-Download Hi everyone! We’re incredibly excited for you all to get your hands on the WoW Classic BlizzCon demo next week, and to help make things as smooth as possible, we’re making the client available to download for Virtual Ticket holders starting today. Over the next 24 hours, we’ll be enabling the ability to download the WoW Classic demo through the Battle.net app for players who have purchased the BlizzCon Virtual Ticket, as well as standard BlizzCon ticket holders who have added their Virtual Goodies code to their Battle.net account. If you don’t see the option to install the demo right away, don’t worry – you’ll still have plenty of time to download the client before the demo goes live during BlizzCon next week. We can’t wait for you to get a peek at what we’ve been working on, and hope you enjoy this preview of what’s to come!Ythisens156 Nov 13
Nov 15 Guild Banks Pt. 14 So let's take our minds off subs and sharding and have a nice classic discussion about guild banks. Guild banks are still by far the least impactful on gameplay and most spirit of Vanilla community change one could request. Not only that the log keeps officers and gm's honest. Without logs they are free to skim off the top of donations and trivialize their epic mount purchase. Thoughts?Padrepwn91 Nov 15
Nov 15 How to fix paladin dps Just make holy wrath & exorcism work on all types of enemy but not affect player characters. It's an easy fix that will make pally dps better in pve but stay the same as they were in vanilla in pvp. Put this thing into a deep ret talent so it will require people to spec deep in ret to be able to dps. A good spot is add it with two-hand weapon specialization making it so that by putting talents into it all hostile aside from players and undeads(since they are already affected by the default version) to be affected by the dmg and effects of the spells effectiveness by 33%/66%/100%. I doubt they would even do this so im just throwing out ideas since too many of you dont actually read the forum and only read the OP here you go to explain a bit of my reasoning because this change wont make ret stronger than pure dps; clearly most of you people didnt play vanilla nor know anything about naxx. ...Toushin260 Nov 15
Gold in World of Warcraft Classic is an integral part of the game. In this article, we will discuss the importance/role of gold in vanilla WOW and how you can obtain it easily. Gold was vastly more important in classic; it gradually became less relevant/powerful as time went on in the current version of the game. It is very tedious (but not difficult) to gain gold in vanilla, which is why many people choose to purchase gold.
Another way to make gold. This option works well at level 60 when you have some good gear already. Obviously, you should have some gold ready to buy reagents. Be ready for expenses up to 225 skill points in any profession: items below that are not worth much. You will get first income after 225 skill points in Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, Alchemy or Tailoring. Unfortunately, Engineering and Enchanting will still require some investments.  The only way to make gold with enchanting is disenchanting skill (we talked about it).
I think that the token is a nice solution for the problem. Back in the days, blizzard tryed to ban gold sellers, but it was a lost cause. Instead, the token seems to have resolved the problem, letting workers that want to raid with consumables and stuffs to have the golds to do it. Personally, I don't find the gold buying really fair, but I understand that for many people is a necessity and I prefer to leave the economy and the farming spots to the player instead to the gold sellers.
We understand the customer’s concern for price, we go the extra mile to make sure you are getting the best deal. We have been in business for many years, many game gold and item suppliers have cooperated with us, we will find the best resources to provide customers with the most competitive and cheapest prices For WoW Classic Gold. We can afford to offer our WoW Classic Gold at lower prices than our competition without sacrificing on quality of service. We promise to deliver your WoW Gold as fast as possible. Usually we will complete your order within 10 minutes to 12 hours.
In terms of what the World of Warcraft Classic Best Classes are, Warrior and Priest stand out almost instantly. This is partly due to the fact that Protection Warrior is the only viable Tank Class in WoW Vanilla Patch 1.12. Both the Proc Warrior and Priest are required for Raids and when combined in a PVP setting can be a fierce combo on the battlegrounds.
One may think that the AH may suffer a reduction of competitivity, leading to higher prices, but in an healthy server the gold farmer's farm will be taken over by actual players. Giving the chance to a more fair gameplay where you can go out and farm the materials that you need, instead to see them always farmed by gold sellers that sell them to you, without letting you many room to make gold in a fair way.
Expected More That WoW Classic Will Resurrect That Hardcore Breed Of MMO That So Many Players Originally Fell In Love With. In World Of Warcraft Classic, It's Built Using Patch 1.12, Titled Drums Of War, Released On August 22, 2006, Equipment And Abilities Will Remain Stable In Order To Reflect The Minor Adjustment That Blizzard Made With Each Path While Dungeons, Raids, And PVP Features Will Constantly Change.
Nov 15 Dual Boxing in Classic I was seriously thinking about being a masochist and playing a paladin in classic but then I wondered if dual boxing will still be possible in classic with the change in engines running the game. I've never dual boxed so will have to research how it works. However, it hit me that I can dual box a warrior and a priest then transfer the priest to my main account at 60 so I will have the best tank and best healer in the game to play around with. Anyone else planning on doing this and have any good resources to start learning about it?Twiinkedd6 Nov 15
To get Blacksmithing to level 300 is much effort. It is not that thing to make fast gold. There is always a lack of Blacksmiths though. Enchanters need rods of all kinds, melee classes look for Sharpening Stones and Weightstones with Counterweights, others buy Iron Spurs. Once you have learnt rare and epic recipes, people will always use your service to craft items.
Blizz stated in a watercooler that they're using the 1.12 database as a starting point. I don't think it's a stretch for people to assume that most game features and mechanics will be in their 1.12 state. The kind of stuff I would expect to see reverted would be numerous AV changes, but I seriously doubt class mechanics are going to be reverted. I'd be surprised if the threat changes that ruin pre-naxx encounters are reverted. 

Beginning May 15, select WoW players will be invited to participate in a small-scale, focused closed beta test. Players will also get a chance to help put our servers and technology through their paces in a series of stress tests running from May through July—you can opt in now through Account Management and select the WoW Classic beta. Subsequent stress tests will extend the opportunity to even more players. Level caps will also be in place to ensure we’re emphasizing the “stress” in “stress test”
The Horde levels 50-60 guide has been rewritten and revamped.  My 1-60 Horde leveling guide is now completely updated for the 1.12 Drums of War patch.  As you can see it is about 15% larger than the 40-50 guide (single largest guide page yet).  There is also a lot of route changes.  I moved the entire Silithus section from level 55 to level 58, which allowed me to include a lot more quests for that zone.  There is also a lot of other improvement to the route, including adding a lot more quests into the guide, mostly from Moonglade, Silithus and Eastern Plaguelands.  This will make the final level 59 grind much shorter.

First thing you should do is to learn the market for the specific item you would like to monopolize. Let’s say it is Kingsblood. We can see a stack of Kingsblood is selling for 1 gold. There are 10 stacks on Auction House. To control the market, you have to buy out all the lots of Kingsblood, even single ones. Next move is to make auctions of Kingsblood you have bought for the price you want. Be reasonable and make it 2 gold. But all people are still being used to the old price of 1 gold and will not buy your Kingsblood at first. You have to maintain your auctions for 2 gold all the time, no need to put all Kingsblood you have at once, 3-5 lots are enough at the beginning. You can see, other sellers may start create auctions for 2 gold as well. That’s what we need.  But if someone is selling for cheaper price, buy out their Kingsblood immediately. Soon people will start to accept your price of 2 gold as a regular price and will buy your stuff. Now you just to have to sell all Kingsblood you got. Control several markets. It can be anything, even twink blue items or items level 20-30 or 30-40. Same strategy works everywhere. It requires lots of time to track the markets and check auction house. It is not that easy as it may seem, you should spend at least a week of monitoring to be sure about prices, you will fail if you buy out everything at once without research. Soon or later, too many people will decide to sell your item as well. As they could see price change and think it had happened naturally. Market becomes overflooded. It is important to quit before the collapse. This always happens. 

You will have to talk with flight masters in most towns or cities you visit in order to gain access to that settlement's flight path. Flight masters who have a stop you have not yet unlocked will have a green displayed above their head (and on the mini map), much like a NPC with a quest. Unlocking flight paths as you progress through various zones will allow you to pay for a quick ride to a destination you have previously visited. This method of travel is significantly faster than walking or riding a mount.
Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314 Nov 15
In-game mail between guildmates now is instant, but in the past, it had a 1-hour delay, just like mail between strangers. The change to instant mail made things more convenient, but removed the social interaction of having to meet up with someone to make a transaction if you wanted something sooner. So we’ve reintroduced that delay for that reason. Other conveniences such as auto-completion of names or quickly clearing a mailbox have been left in. This seemed an easy enough call given that someone could create an add-on to do the very same thing, and we felt those sorts of conveniences didn’t impact the fundamental “classic” experience.
Nov 7, 2017 Welcome - Please Read! Welcome to the Classic Discussion forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft: Classic with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct and guidelines before posting. Code of Conduct: http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct Getting the Most Out of the Forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2016792409 Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community.Ornyx1 Nov 7, 2017
Swim Speed Potions (used especially at lvl 37 for Faldir's Cove in Arathi Highlands and lvl 57 in WPL).  Try to get multiple stacks of these.  I also recommend keeping a stack of these always in your bags.  You will frequently pass rivers and lakes and can use these potions to pass them faster through out the guide.  Please note that these potions do not stack with Druid's Aquatic Form and Glyph of Aquatic Form.

Gold in World of Warcraft Classic is an integral part of the game. In this article, we will discuss the importance/role of gold in vanilla WOW and how you can obtain it easily. Gold was vastly more important in classic; it gradually became less relevant/powerful as time went on in the current version of the game. It is very tedious (but not difficult) to gain gold in vanilla, which is why many people choose to purchase gold.
Earning gold in World of Warcraft: Classic is all about optimizing your spendings. Back in the day, your character’s skills were acquired from a trainer, using money. Don’t just buy everything he or she offers! Read the skill descriptions and be mindful about them. Quite a few characters can live through the levelling process without learning some of their utility or damage spells. These won’t go anywhere and you’ll be able to learn them later on.
Our initial runs exposed a few (expected) issues: the game sometimes crashed, didn’t recognize our modern video cards, and was incompatible with our current login system. That first pass also couldn’t support any of our modern security and anti-cheating capabilities. Clearly we had a lot of work to do to make WoW Classic live up to the Blizzard standard of quality, and deliver the experience players want.
CLOSED BETA TEST & STRESS TESTS – Starting May 15, select WoW players will be invited to participate in a small-scale, focused closed beta test, helping ensure WoW Classic nails its goal of authenticity. Players will also get a chance to help put our servers and technology through the paces in a series of stress tests from May through July—opt in now at www.wowclassic.com!
Nov 15 The most hardcore thing you can do. In vanilla? I have a few things that could be it. Playing on a perma death PvP server and kill kel'thuzad. Without dying even once. Being able to kill a mage/rogue/warlock/pally in all BiS gear Soloing a high end dungeon boss like rivendare or dark master gandling. Leveling to 60 with no gear or weapons or pet of any kind. That is by far the most hardcore, life threatening thing you can do in vanilla wowHavell7 Nov 15
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